Saturday BlogRoll call

I have added a couple new blogs to the roll,

Con$umer Disobedience is by two friends who have embarked on a year long project to stop being consumers.

Free to Farm is a personal blog about stopping NAIS

Mindful Momma is writen about wanting to be more green, but unable to afford it. Tips and suggestions on how to live a greener life on a budget.

Enjoy!

Compacting my life

Yes, yes, this is my third post of the morning, but I thought it would be fine as this is the only one that was written by me.

I am a member of the compacting web ring. I have been reading other's entries about what they are doing for the holidays, there is a lot of guilt about buying items, and lot's of worries about how their new compacting lifestyle will effect their loved ones. My worries are slightly different.

I am not sure I belong on the compacting webring. I am simplifying my life. Getting rid of things we don't use. But the buying, well let me tell you a little of what goes on around here.

I have no credit, my husband doesn't use credit. We always buy things with cash, if we don't have the cash, we don't buy it. We rarely buy things throughout the year {except if it is something that a child needs} we save many of our purchases for Christmas and birthdays. I got the new field scissors for my birthday, it was something I needed for the turkey. My husband doesn't read this so. . . For Christmas I bought my husband a new pair of saddle bags, a caponizing kit and my son's bought him some new CD's. He doesn't need the CD's, but my boys {the oldest} thought he deserved something fun. I will get things that are equally sensible. {Hoping for some more cast iron pans} We also buy all our big ticket items comes tax time.

I bought $400 US worth of books for $70 the other day. This is my frivolous purchase for the year.

Do I belong in the Compactors webring? Our Christmas will be the same size it is every year. This is in part because of the story I told you yesterday. And the fact that we don't buy things throughout the year. And I couldn't imagine feeling guilty for buying something that is not only wanted, but in my mind needed {Like the books} I wear the same clothes year after year {of course they're washed} As long as they are in good condition, they are worn. Of course I am a fashion taboo, looking like I am stuck in the 90's {though I could really care less} I wear my husband's t-shirts {he gets free shirts sent to him from motorcycle shops all over the world as a thank you} My shoes {boots} are usually gifts from other's.

So where does or should my lifestyle change?

I haven't really taken the pledge, as I don't know if I should. Not buy new items for a year? Reduce the amount I do buy? Where do I cut those items from? I don't think I can cut anymore than what my lifestyle dictates. The items I buy tend to help sustain the homestead. Some items do make life a little easier, but it still requires more work than what non-homesteader do. {Of course I could have not bought that juicer}

There are many things I would love to have, items to ease my chores and projects. But I can not justify buying them because of the expense.

To my fellow compactors, even with some of you "falling of the wagon" you are still doing great. I am awed by the fact that you have taken such a drastic measure in your lives, keep up the good work.

An editorial Part I

This was posted on a sheep owner forum and e-mailed to me.
I do have permission to print it from the owner. This is a
very well thought out opinion on what the New User Guide
{NAIS} means to us.


You all know that I am against NAIS and there
are a wholelot of reasons to dislike NAIS
besides those that I have pointed out in the
past.  Basically they fall into 4 categories.
1. Constitutional Reasons,  2.  Economic Cost
(including time) 3. Global Reasons
4. Religious Reasons But I would like only like to point
out those things that I  have personally

researched and feel I can be covered here.
Neither can I cover any of these 4 reasons
with the expertise  that can be found on
other websites.  I would recommend that you go to
one of the major sites such as (which will lead you to
all the other sites out there against NAIS)

NoNAIS.org
Stop Animal ID.org
Liberty Ark.net

I would also recommend that you go
to the USDA's website on
NAIS (I have it bookmarked)
and read everything there
USDA NAIS
Don't depend on any ones
word on what the program will be like
(even my local USDA/NRCS
people knew less about NAIS than I did
and didn't even know what
I was talking about when I first
asked about it, the first part
of the year.  Of course they were
like that the first time I asked
about the wool program, scrapie
program and lamb retention program.
Most of the information that I am
going to point out (including
estimated cost) can be verified on
the USDA's site.  Either in the
User guide, field trial projects,
and other documents published by USDA.

NAIS and the Scrapie Eradication
program have MAJOR differences.
NAIS adds and changes requirements
in Scrapie Program.  If you are
like me you will no longer be
recognized as just a sheep operation but
a multi-species reporting operation.

1. There is a difference between the
premise identification and farm ID
numbers.  Farm ID numbers applies to
your flock and goes with you if you
move your farm to another location.
Also Farm ID only refers to sheep/goat
premises.  A premise identification
number is attached to the land and stays
with the land - (GPS located) and
applies to all reportable species.
If you move your farm/operation
(lock, stock and barrel) you leave behind
your old premise ID and get a new
premise ID (or assume the already assigned
premise ID) for your farm/operation.
You will have to file several reports
to the individual data bases when you
move you animals to your new location.
which leads me to the next
point.

2.  These reports are on each Animal
Identification Number (AIN) one animal
-one number - one report.  You don't
report your farm moving animals, you
report each AIN movement.  Because
each animal has it's own record in what
ever data base it is in.  (example:
you move 4 cows, 10 sheep, 20 chicken,
10 geese, 4 horses and 2 pigs.
(each of these animals will need an AIN
assigned to it and they are leaving
their premise of origin)  you will
send 4 reports to the data base that
covers cows; 10 reports to the sheep
data base, 30 reports to the poultry
data base, 4 reports to the horse
data base and 2 reports to the pig
data base) and do this within 24-48
hrs of the animals actual movement.
This applies to almost all animal
movements (AINs) off of the premise
of record.  (need to check each species
group on which movements need reporting
- though there is presently only
a preliminary list at the NAIS site).
There are the standard reportable
movements in each species but there
are also differences for each type of
animal (i.e. Horses have different
types of reportable movements that
poultry wouldn't even need)

3.  But what about Group/Lot Identification
Numbers (GIN) as an alternate
to AIN's.  User guide says this "However,
group/lot identification may be
an option for other species when they move
through the production chain
as a group."   (note the word MAY) Most
small operations do not do an
'all-in all-out' separation of animals.
(my chickens are raised in one
house and while I sell small groups of
them to different people, I do not
and would not be able separate and maintain
groups of chickens according
to when they would be leaving my premise of
record.)

4.   Small farmers/operations will be the
ones that provide the main
financial support to maintain NAIS (talking
millions of dollars).  GIN
are mainly used by the poultry and pork
industry (big operations under
contract with major food industries that
have brand names in the
supermarkets, I won't mention names)
These same companies are pushing
for NAIS but they are not going to be
included in NAIS requirements or
provide financial support to do the other
2 parts of NAIS (tagging and
tracking).  Because GIN are created or
'self-generated'  on the premise
(not assigned by USDA) and maintained
on the premises (check User Guide).
Large operations don't have to buy the
tags nor file reports to a national
data base, they only need to get and
maintain a premise ID.

5. USDA says small non-commercial
producers are exempt from NAIS.
This is the USDA's definition -
"Individuals whose animals are not
moved to auction barns or from their
location to those of commercial
producers.  And Individuals whose
animal movements are limited to
those moved directly to custom
slaughter; movements within a single
producer's premises; local fairs
and local 4-H events, "  (local is
within your county or parish)
also from the user guide "Animals that
do not leave their birth premises
for reportable movements and that
die and are buried at the birth
place would not be identified
(animals that die on the premises and
are taken to a rendering plant
need to identified...)"   These
is a very narrow exemption guideline.
Very few small operations even operate
this way since most people don't
breed all of the species of animals
they raise.

6.  What is the financial cost?  Here
USDA has had plenty of years to do a
cost analysis but as refused to do one
(or atleast publish an all inclusive
cost of materials and labor.)  User
Guide mentions tags alone costing $1-$3.
It has done some recent field trails
but cautions that the cost are not
reliable and do not apply across the
board to all species that needs
reporting.  But they have posted some
estimates in the past at some of
the townhall meetings ($8-$16 per animal
for the first year) and recently
in some of the field trials ($5-$20 per
animal).  Most of these estimates
applied to large livestock and not to
poultry.
Neither does these estimates include the
cost of the tagging and tracking
reports, nor the total tag failure rates
(30% as reported in Australia)
The Australian Beef Association did a cost
analysis that included all parts
of the whole program and reported a $40
per animal
per year (this is ausy dollars not sure
what the exchange rate is)
Australia's cattle has been in a mandatory
NLIS program for a couple of years.
Australia beef

While raising sheep/goats is different
from cattle the tagging and tracking
cost will be basically the same.  Though
the handling cost may increase for
sheep/goat operations since many might
find they will need squeeze chutes
to use the scanners/wands in reporting
commerce movements.
my sheep operation alone would hopefully
be only $800 the first year)

All of us need to answer how many animals
would I need to sell to pay
for NAIS on our farm.  I can assure anyone
that my profits from my sheep
will not increase by $800 just because
I have a different tag and I report
movements.  Neither will my chickens and
eggs produce enough cash to pay
to maintain them in NAIS.

Continue>>>>

An Editorial Part II

Continued from>>>

7.  AIN devices will not stop theft or
help in the recovery.  Tags can
be easily removed or damaged (the above
Aust. Beef Assoc link)  Also it
has been become standard knowledge that
RFID tags can be reprogrammed
and even able to carry a virus that will
infect data bases when scanned.

8.  NAIS will become Mandatory by the
back door.  In the User Guide USDA
stipulates that "Over time, the animal
identification number (AIN) will
become the standard national numbering
system used for unique individual
animal identification for certain species
and/or methods of
identification.   USDA is working to
incorporate identification numbers
and devices already in use for animal
health programs."  And to buy AIN
numbers (i.e. scrapie program, brucelosis
program) you will need a
premise ID.

9.  The access to reports of our farm
business operations through the
reporting of animal movements is something
anticipated by many different
marketing businesses.  The USDA will not
"own" the information reports;
it does not want to and will not be
receiving the reports that we as
small operations will be sending in on
animal movements.  This
information will be in the hands of
privately owned businesses.  No
safeguards or security is mentioned.
This is real-time information on
availability that others with the money
to pay can get.  I can think of
several money making benefits for these
records and none increases the
profits of the people who are actually
birthing and raising the animals.

10. In the NAIS user guide it also givens
a new definition of Producer -
"the term producer is used to simplify
the references to all individuals
engaged in the ownership, management
or marketing of livestock included
in NAIS."  The word "or" is a legally
important word.  Instead of
defining one combined asset it allows
the distinct individual
separation.  So marketing is not just
selling animals off the farm but
also includes businesses two or more
steps away for the farm.  It allows
the USDA to formulate plans that provide
economic protection for big
marketing companies (people who never come
in contact with animals)
along with and sometimes over people who
actually raise animals.
Because marketing producers have larger
financial 'stakes" at risk than
the small producers.

11.  Animal Diseases outbreaks.   Everyone
needs to read the government
document GAO-05-214  Protecting against
Agroterrorism.   USDA's reactions to such
outbreaks have not been to use
recent advances in Vet treatments and
vaccinations.  Instead of dealing
with disease outbreaks in a way that
is most beneficial to the
communities of people who birth and
raise animals it tailors it's
response to benefit marketing agents.
It states in GAO page 31 " Should
USDA officially confirm the presence
of a disease, such as FMD, the
affected herd and all cattle, sheep,
goats, swine, and susceptible
wildlife -infected or not-  within a
minimum 10-kilometer zone around
the infected farm would be killed ....
If the disease were to spread
beyond the initial zone, authorities
would continue to quarantine and
kill animals until the disease was stamped
out."  The report stated that
this is "precisely the type of high-visibility
destruction that some
experts told us terrorists seek."    In other
words this mass kill of
healthy animals is exactly what the terrorist
want.  You would think
that the right response to this threat is
to plan a response that stops
this result of terrorist actions - using
quarantines zones with
aggressive treatments (if available depending
on the disease) and
vaccinations of healthy animals.  Instead
on page 36 of the GAO  "In
place of vaccination, USDA generally prefers
to immediately slaughter
diseased animals because international rules
that the United States and
other countries have agreed to abide by are
designed to prevent trade in
infected or vaccinated animals."   (United
Nations and/or World Trade
Organization)  What you get with this
attitude is what happened in
Britain.  Healthy animals - not infected -
not showing any signs of the
disease being killed because they were
within 6 miles of a sick animal,
and this was done (even though there was
and are vaccinations for FMD)
because marketing companies didn't want
to loose money in exporting
animal by-products.   If Animal health
was the USDA's concern it's plan
to react to outbreaks should be using
the most advance Veterinary
sciences not trade agreements.
Point 10 and 11 are made so that you
can better understand point 12

Point 12  The NAIS user guide goes into
little detail about plans for
outbreaks except to talk about the Economic
Benefits of NAIS.
In several places in the guide a lot of
intentional emphasis is placed
on the need to keep international markets
open.   Insensitive statements
like "..the faster an animal disease is
isolated, the sooner life gets
back to normal."  Markets return to normal
but even the USDA recognizes
that entire communities will be effected
and livelihoods destroyed;
there is no return to normal (ask the
farmers affected in Britain).
The guide says "--the time it takes to
contain and control or eradicate
the disease is the key factor that determines
the economic losses and
other social harms."  This is my biggest
objection.  TIME is not the
Key, you need to replace the word 'time'
with the METHOD.  You can do
complete reporting of movements within
24-48 hrs and still be two weeks
or more LATE.  There is an incubation period
before any disease where
animals are infected but don't show the
signs.
With the Method as the key factor there
is not a need for NAIS.  Farm
communities will come together and get
the job if they know there is a
future for them and that means keeping
the health animals alive and stop
worrying about the time.  Pages 2, 3, 8,
11 and 12 of the user guide
tries to but the best light on the need
for NAIS as an animal health
issue until you put the statements in the
light of reality and then it
indicates that the USDA will take a very
confrontational attitude
towards people with animals.
The biggest economical benefit for NAIS
is the companies selling the
tags, tag equipment accessories, along
with the computer software and
hardware associated with NAIS.  Doing
the math for the nation - on just
the slaughter livestock according to
the 2005 NASS of USDA - 32,535,000
cows, 770,000 calves, 103,691,000 hogs
and 2,761,000 sheep giving a
total of
139,757,000 animals in 2005 (approximate
yearly average for most years)
if all of this animals required AIN tags
that would mean a dollar value
of $419,271,000 in tags and that would not
include all tagged animals or
the failed tags that require retagging for
what ever reason (remember
30% fail rate reported by Aust Beef Assoc.)

Point 13 -  What regulations that we as a
country allow to be
implemented will effect other farmers Globally
because we set the
standard (or in schoolyard term 'NAIS is going
to screw up the Curve.'
)  If we set a standard so high that poorer
countries will be guaranteed
to fail resulting in extremely lower prices
for their products.  Even
the WTO recognizes what will happen when they
set their standard so high
for agriculture programs (its' recommendation
when faced with this was
to increase food bank supplies not change the
programs!).   The USDA
needs to tell the international organizations
that made up these harmful
regulations to change them!!!

Point 14 - Religious reasons against NAIS is
very personal and usually
only Christians have become public.  (Though
I would think people in
India would have some religious objections
to tagging animals but I am
not familiar with these)  The Amish as already
noted have convictions
against NAIS.  Personally I believe that the
bible does not say what the
mark of the beast will be but it does indicate
what it's effects are
-unable to buy and sale.   For that reason I
believe that NAIS is a
foundation stone for an evil system.  This does
mean for my farm that we
can not be involved in NAIS and that I must
speak out against it.
Since the Scrapie program has become mandatory,
with recent indications
that it will start to limit market available
along with soon to be
linked with NAIS (see the NAIS Sheep working
group report) I have
removed our farm from the scrapie certification
program.



I will end my piece on NAIS with one final note.
The American Romney
Breeders Association (ARBA) has posted on its
website that is it for a
National Animal Identification System. 
The Website statement uses
wording that is very similar if not verbatim
of USDA remarks on
objections against NAIS.  I am hoping that
this decision to take a
public stand for all members of the registry
was done with good
intentions by the board (at earlier meetings
this year) before
grassroots efforts to fight NAIS started to
pick up steam.
IMO-I don't believe any registry should come
out for or against any
program sponsored by the government (provide
information yes! but not a
public stand on issues that can cause divisions
without first polling
the membership)  I have brought this up by email
to the Pres, Vice-Pres,
Sec, and two other people assigned to report back
to the board on NAIS.
Such a statements indicates that the Association
may allow the USDA to
data-mine information out of ARBA records without
members consent.
(There are Cattle registries that are voluntarily
giving member
information and reporting sales (movements) of
animals to states which
are implementing Mandatory programs. A Goat registry
that has recently
indicated that the USDA only needs to ask (without
using legal channels)
to get member information),  While I don't expect
ARBA to refuse lawful
searches that come with the proper legal documentation,
I am expecting
it to set standards on what information of its members
it will and will
not voluntarily share with anyone.  This is a statement
or guideline I
would like to see put in the ARBA By-laws.

Respectfully

Marsh Mellow Meadows
Marsh Romney Sheep
Southwest Louisiana

Do you understand how wide the kill zone is? And that it will 
include healthy animals? ~Phelan

May I tell you a story?

Allow me to take you back in time, 20 some odd years back. To a time when White snake and Def Leopard reign supreme. A time where it was all about excess and me, me, me. If you wandered the streets of Denver Colorado during this time, that would be Christmas time 20 some odd years back, the streets would have been covered in snow, carolers out in full force, decorations to blind a normal persons eyesight, and crowds rushing about buying that must have Cabbage patch kid, too busy to notice the two little boys that walked meekly along, in worn through clothes.

“Santa will be here soon.”
“He never visited us before.” the smaller of the two boys replied. His older brother could only look down at him, not sure what to say. He knew that Santa had visited them before. But that was a long time ago, when they were very little.
“Maybe Santa will give us a hotel room on Christmas eve.” The older brother said, making an attempt to brighten his little brothers mood.
“Maybe.” the littlest tried to fight off the grin that was forming at the thought.

School had let out for winter break {or Christmas break as it was called then}, the brothers had no where to spend their days, as their parents both worked. Sometimes their mother would sneak them out some hot lunch during these times, but more times then not they were on their own, filling the time by looking into store windows and imagining finding those toys under the Christmas tree.

“Do you think we can get a tree to decorate this year?” The littlest brother tried to brighten.
“Maybe.” Was the oldest reply.

There would be no tree, it wouldn’t fit into the car they lived in. Their parents were hard workers, and had never been bad with their money. Things just seemed to always be against them. The littlest brother had been born with a rare spider web like cancer, and hospital bills had to be paid. For the past 7 years, they boys could never remember living in a house, it was always a car or motel room. It was hard to get ahead of the bills. The boys parents were proud, too proud to take hand outs, or allow a debt to remain. Even at the expense of their children.

“We’ll have turkey with stuffing!” the oldest got into the game.
“And hot biscuits and hot cocoa!” the littlest rejoiced.

Could they ever have those things? They wondered, and even if their young minds knew the reality, they imagined it different. They walked into the parking lot where the car they slept in waited for their return. The boys pretended it was a grand house, the windows full of multi-colored lights. They opened the front door, and laughter and warmth spilled over them.

“Shut it you eejits!” a girl’s voice ended their game. The boys sister laid under several blankets and dirty clothes, trying to keep warm against the Colorado winter. The boys complied, and curled up with their sister before falling asleep and dreaming of wealth.

“Wake up.” someone was shaking the three children. Their mother beamed her smile down at them, then beckoned them to follow her. The car had moved, now it was parked outside of a motel. The children were ushered into a single bed room, and there next to the television was a present for each, a handful of hard candies, and a mug of hot cocoa for them to share. “Merry Christmas.” their father said. It didn’t matter to the children what was in the packages, what mattered was that Santa had came through. He had heard them talking on the street and brought them what they needed.

“Tomorrow we move to Kansas,” Their father was saying. “And everything will be different.” And indeed it was different. They moved into a house, and stayed in one place for many years. Santa had out did himself. Every year they would find one present for each of them under the small tree, it was a reminder of what had happened that Christmas 20 some odd years ago.

Now the boys are grown, with families, homes and worries of their own. They both tell their children about Santa Clause and what wonderful things he did for them. And at night when their children are sleeping in a bed, and not under a dirty pile of laundry in the back of a car, they thank Santa, their parents and swear that nothing like that will ever befall their own families. And when the situation presents its self, when they see another family like what theirs had been those 20 some odd years back, they try to help Santa out.

~based on a true story~

It's morning

Thank you for the fingers crossed, prayers and thoughts. The surgery took longer than they had expected, but my mother called, giggling high, and said she feels better already. She will go home this morning.

Congratulations to The Fool and Chelee! My husband drew your names this morning. Please e-mail me with where you would like the DVD sent. And I will send you a tracking number shortly.

You can buy your own copy by donating to the Granny Warriors or clicking on the banner above.

I am preoccupied this morning

My mother should be going into surgery as I write this. I will know how it went later today.

You have until 12am central time tonight to put your name in the hat for a copy of the DVD America: Freedom to Fascism.

I really did try

I did a bit o' baking this weekend. I made a pumpkin cake, but didn't care for it. My husband and boys liked it, but I thought it could be better. I also bought a package of mint/chocolate swirled chips and tried the recipe for mint brownies on the back of the package. It could use some improvement.


I also made a Pumpkin roll. It looks a little sloppy, but I have an excuse. I didn't wait long enough for it to cool. It tastes the same, it's just not going to leave the house in this condition.

CAKE:
1/4 cup powdered sugar (to sprinkle on towel)
3/4 cup all-purpose flour
½ tsp baking powder
½ tsp baking soda
½ tsp ground cinnamon
½ tsp ground nutmeg
1/4 tsp salt
3 large eggs
1 cup sugar
2/3 cup Pumpkin Puree
1 cup walnuts chopped, (optional)

FILLING:
8-oz. (1 pkg.) cream cheese, softened
1 cup powdered sugar, sifted
6 tablespoons butter, softened
1 teaspoon vanilla
1/4 cup powdered sugar (optional)

FOR CAKE:
heat oven to 375̊F. Grease 15 x 10-inch jelly-roll pan; line with wax paper. Grease and flour the paper. Sprinkle a thin, cotton kitchen towel generously with powdered sugar.
Whisk together the flour, baking soda, baking powder, cinnamon, nutmeg and salt in small bowl. Beat eggs and sugar in large mixer bowl until thick. Beat in the pumpkin. Stir in flour mix. Spread evenly into prepared pan. Sprinkle with nuts, if using.
Bake for 13 to 15 minutes at 375F or until top of cake springs back when touched. Immediately loosen and turn cake onto prepared towel. Carefully peel off paper. Roll up cake and towel together, starting with narrow end. Cool on wire rack.

FOR FILLING: Beat cream cheese, powdered sugar, butter and vanilla extract in small mixer bowl until smooth. Carefully unroll cake and remove towel. Spread cream cheese mixture over cake. Reroll cake. Wrap in plastic wrap and refrigerate at least one hour. Sprinkle with powdered sugar before serving.

My 2 year old helped me make some shortbread, he mixed and poured the powdered sugar on top.

1 cup butter, soften
1/4 cup light brown sugar, packed
1/4 cup powdered sugar
2 cups all- purpose flour


preheat oven to 325F
Cream the butter, then add the sugars and cream well.
Slowly add the flour, stiring until smooth
Using your hands, press the dough into a 9 inch pie pan or short bread mold
Bake for 40 minutes, until golden in color. cool in the pan. Loosen the edges by running a kife around the inside of pan, turn out onto serving platter. cut into wedges.

pssst, Simple Katie

And all you other book freaks out there. Just wanted to give you a heads up that Book Close outs is having a dollar for dollar sale until Dec 31st. I buy books there every year, just placed my order and saved over $300 US.

I know what I want to be when I grow up

I know, it's late and I shouldn't be blogging and baking on little sleep.

I want to be a Granny Warrior. As many of you have come to realize, I get daily emails about NAIS. Once in awhile a Granny Warrior email will pop up. More times than not, the messages make me smile. I thought I would help them out and buy a Granny Warriors t-shirt. I also bought two copies of a DVD. If you haven't seen it, I recommend that you do.




The movie is called America: Freedom to Fascism;

Determined to find the law that requires Americans to pay income tax, Aaron Russo (THE ROSE, TRADING PLACES) sets out on a journey. Neither left- nor right-wing, this startling examination exposes the systematic erosion of civil liberties in America. Through interviews with US Congressmen, a former IRS Commissioner, former IRS and FBI agents, tax attorneys and authors, Russo connects the dots between money creation, federal income tax, voter fraud, the national identity card (becoming law in May 2008) and the implementation of radio frequency identification (RFID) technology to track citizens. A striking case about the evolving police state in America.


I have never been good at reviews. It's the struggling, self demurring artist in me. I loved the movie, in fact I liked it so much that I am giving it away.

I will shortly have 2 copies here. If you would like to get your own copy you can buy it from the Granny Warriors, or leave a reply here and I'll place names in a hat. I will leave it open until Wednesday evening.